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	<title>Comments for orDover</title>
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	<link>http://ordover.wordpress.com</link>
	<description>The art of thinking critically and living life after religion</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 09:06:23 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on About me by Laura</title>
		<link>http://ordover.wordpress.com/about/#comment-469</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 09:06:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-469</guid>
		<description>I miss your posts!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I miss your posts!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Dealing with Death, Part 2 by Mary</title>
		<link>http://ordover.wordpress.com/2009/05/14/dealing-with-death-part-2/#comment-468</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 01:22:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ordover.wordpress.com/?p=260#comment-468</guid>
		<description>Wow, that quote is SO perfect. It expresses what I feel about death now exactly. I wish I had NEVER been taught there was a heaven. The loss of that illusion has caused me so much grief, especially as I consider a dear friend who recently died. &quot;If I were the kind of person who could believe, I would believe. But I’m not that kind of person. Shit.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, that quote is SO perfect. It expresses what I feel about death now exactly. I wish I had NEVER been taught there was a heaven. The loss of that illusion has caused me so much grief, especially as I consider a dear friend who recently died. &#8220;If I were the kind of person who could believe, I would believe. But I’m not that kind of person. Shit.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>Comment on What Most Apologists Don&#8217;t Seem to Get by Lucian</title>
		<link>http://ordover.wordpress.com/2009/05/05/what-most-apologists-dont-seem-to-get/#comment-462</link>
		<dc:creator>Lucian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 14:08:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ordover.wordpress.com/2009/05/05/what-most-apologists-dont-seem-to-get/#comment-462</guid>
		<description>Not even fellow &lt;a href=&quot;http://rhoblogy.blogspot.com/2009/08/holy-fire.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Christians&lt;/a&gt; care too much for such evidence, so I wouldn&#039;t take it so hard on myself, were I in Your shoes...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not even fellow <a href="http://rhoblogy.blogspot.com/2009/08/holy-fire.html" rel="nofollow">Christians</a> care too much for such evidence, so I wouldn&#8217;t take it so hard on myself, were I in Your shoes&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on You gotta have faith? by diana</title>
		<link>http://ordover.wordpress.com/2009/03/09/you-gotta-have-faith/#comment-460</link>
		<dc:creator>diana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Aug 2009 16:33:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ordover.wordpress.com/?p=240#comment-460</guid>
		<description>why is it so hard to have faith in God?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>why is it so hard to have faith in God?</p>
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		<title>Comment on What Dumbo and I have in common by orDover</title>
		<link>http://ordover.wordpress.com/2008/08/19/what-dumbo-and-i-have-in-common/#comment-457</link>
		<dc:creator>orDover</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 00:40:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ordover.wordpress.com/?p=32#comment-457</guid>
		<description>Jo, I&#039;m afraid you didn&#039;t really comprehend the heart of my post. I did not ever, and I do not now, believe that God was some sort of wish-granting magical being.

You wrote:
&lt;blockquote&gt;God is not a crutch for anyone because the Lord will not help those who do not help themselves therefore the Bible, which Christian or not is a great book for ethical guidance, teaches us to be people in action, to do something about being better within our selves.&lt;/blockquote&gt; 

Yes. I know that. That is what I believed as a Christian. That is what I was taught at church and school. Read again this passage that I wrote about trying out for a sports team:

&quot;But then I remembered that I was a child of God! I knew that if it was his will for my life that he would help me make the team. With a new sense of peace and confidence I completed tryouts, giving it my very best, and leaving the rest in God’s hands.&quot;

So it wasn&#039;t that I believed God would grant my wish, but I knew that he had a plan for my life, so no matter what happened, whether I made the team or not, I would be alright. Believing God was looking out for me didn&#039;t make me think that all of my dreams and wishes would come true without me putting in any effort, but it simply gave me inward peace.  

&lt;blockquote&gt;Prayer is not a magic wish list. Every sports team as fans or players, praying to win on both sides and someone will always loose, every job applied for, every opening in a college, every spot on a team has been prayed for at one time or another and most have not gotten what they wanted, was that an unanswered prayer? &lt;/blockquote&gt;

I never held such shallow beliefs. 

&lt;blockquote&gt;I think prayer is something that should be done from deep within your soul, a prayer for peace within ones self, a prayer for someone else in their time of need. A prayer for guidance, hope, energy...&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yes. That is exactly how I treated prayer in this post. I prayed for inner peace and confidence, not for wishes to be granted.

&lt;blockquote&gt;lease know that I’m not trying to push my beliefs on you just simply offering another view point. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

You&#039;re offering the standard Christian viewpoint, which I something I am intimately familiar with. Remember, I was a Christian for the vast majority of my life. I was an honor student at a conservative Christian high school. You&#039;re not giving me any new information. You&#039;re not telling me something I haven&#039;t heard a million times before. I&#039;m not trying to be harsh here, I recognize your good intentions, but this is frustrating. Your comment would be appropriate if you were writing to a person who had never heard &quot;the good news,&quot; but it&#039;s just redundant and useless when you&#039;re speaking to a former Christian.

&lt;blockquote&gt;I had the success I did it on my own the roads were smooth I had my life and everything in it was just fine but deep down I knew something was missing.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Nothing is missing from my life. I am happy, fulfilled, complete. 

Look, Jo, I know you&#039;re trying to help and be friendly, but I can&#039;t help but be offended by your comment for one simple reason: you have reduce me to an easy-to-deal-with parody.

It&#039;s easier for you to deal with my loss of faith in God if you turn me into a shallow, silly sort of Christian — the sort of Christian who holds a grudge against God for not answering her prayer request, not helping them get an A on a test even though they didn&#039;t study or allowing them to win the lottery, who treats prayer like toll-free request hotline. I never held that sort of view.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jo, I&#8217;m afraid you didn&#8217;t really comprehend the heart of my post. I did not ever, and I do not now, believe that God was some sort of wish-granting magical being.</p>
<p>You wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>God is not a crutch for anyone because the Lord will not help those who do not help themselves therefore the Bible, which Christian or not is a great book for ethical guidance, teaches us to be people in action, to do something about being better within our selves.</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes. I know that. That is what I believed as a Christian. That is what I was taught at church and school. Read again this passage that I wrote about trying out for a sports team:</p>
<p>&#8220;But then I remembered that I was a child of God! I knew that if it was his will for my life that he would help me make the team. With a new sense of peace and confidence I completed tryouts, giving it my very best, and leaving the rest in God’s hands.&#8221;</p>
<p>So it wasn&#8217;t that I believed God would grant my wish, but I knew that he had a plan for my life, so no matter what happened, whether I made the team or not, I would be alright. Believing God was looking out for me didn&#8217;t make me think that all of my dreams and wishes would come true without me putting in any effort, but it simply gave me inward peace.  </p>
<blockquote><p>Prayer is not a magic wish list. Every sports team as fans or players, praying to win on both sides and someone will always loose, every job applied for, every opening in a college, every spot on a team has been prayed for at one time or another and most have not gotten what they wanted, was that an unanswered prayer? </p></blockquote>
<p>I never held such shallow beliefs. </p>
<blockquote><p>I think prayer is something that should be done from deep within your soul, a prayer for peace within ones self, a prayer for someone else in their time of need. A prayer for guidance, hope, energy&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes. That is exactly how I treated prayer in this post. I prayed for inner peace and confidence, not for wishes to be granted.</p>
<blockquote><p>lease know that I’m not trying to push my beliefs on you just simply offering another view point. </p></blockquote>
<p>You&#8217;re offering the standard Christian viewpoint, which I something I am intimately familiar with. Remember, I was a Christian for the vast majority of my life. I was an honor student at a conservative Christian high school. You&#8217;re not giving me any new information. You&#8217;re not telling me something I haven&#8217;t heard a million times before. I&#8217;m not trying to be harsh here, I recognize your good intentions, but this is frustrating. Your comment would be appropriate if you were writing to a person who had never heard &#8220;the good news,&#8221; but it&#8217;s just redundant and useless when you&#8217;re speaking to a former Christian.</p>
<blockquote><p>I had the success I did it on my own the roads were smooth I had my life and everything in it was just fine but deep down I knew something was missing.</p></blockquote>
<p>Nothing is missing from my life. I am happy, fulfilled, complete. </p>
<p>Look, Jo, I know you&#8217;re trying to help and be friendly, but I can&#8217;t help but be offended by your comment for one simple reason: you have reduce me to an easy-to-deal-with parody.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s easier for you to deal with my loss of faith in God if you turn me into a shallow, silly sort of Christian — the sort of Christian who holds a grudge against God for not answering her prayer request, not helping them get an A on a test even though they didn&#8217;t study or allowing them to win the lottery, who treats prayer like toll-free request hotline. I never held that sort of view.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What Dumbo and I have in common by Jo</title>
		<link>http://ordover.wordpress.com/2008/08/19/what-dumbo-and-i-have-in-common/#comment-456</link>
		<dc:creator>Jo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 23:41:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ordover.wordpress.com/?p=32#comment-456</guid>
		<description>I agree and disagree with your post. I am a Christian however I have my own view on thing that differ very much from what any church had taught. You see I do not view God as the feather. The feather is my faith. If anything I view the mouse as God, a friend by my side threw everything coaching me and guiding me and trying to help me have faith in myself. God is not a crutch for anyone because the Lord will not help those who do not help themselves therefore the Bible, which Christian or not is a great book for ethical guidance, teaches us to be people in action, to do something about being better within our selves.

 It teaches us acceptance of the fellow man for good or for bad, that it’s not our place to judge and that we can only change ourselves and how we view things and what we do to make our world better for ourselves and better for our fellow men. I’m not trying to preach here so I apologize if that’s how I am coming across it just makes me sad that so often through the “Church” Gods message is lost, so much so that people loose their faith because the focus of who God is has been lost. 

Prayer is not a magic wish list. Every sports team as fans or players, praying to win on both sides and someone will always loose, every job applied for, every opening in a college, every spot on a team has been prayed for at one time or another and most have not gotten what they wanted, was that an unanswered prayer? Some may view it as that I believe it was a wasted prayer. I think prayer is something that should be done from deep within your soul, a prayer for peace within ones self, a prayer for someone else in their time of need. A prayer for guidance, hope, energy; I thank God for all that I have yes but I will also praise him at the times in life when I have nothing, and I’ve been there in the darkness not knowing where to turn or what to do and I know that I’ve worked hard for everything I have. I’ve done the work but in that I thank Him for making me, making me who I am not only as a follower of Christ but as a person. 

My hope in writing this is that you may one day see the truth about God and His unwavering love for all of us. Please know that I’m not trying to push my beliefs on you just simply offering another view point. The possibility that God is a friend and a Father someone or something that loves each of us unconditionally even in the times when we’ve turned our back to him and lost all faith ---and I’ve been there, it was empty.  I had the success I did it on my own the roads were smooth I had my life and everything in it was just fine but deep down I knew something was missing. No matter if I’m on the top of the world with success or cold in the ally starving I’d rather be there with the love of God in my heart and on my lips. I pray for you, someone I’ve never met that you could simply be open to that possibility that God was not the feather in your cap, He’s the friend urging you to have faith within yourself. I hope my words have no offended in anyway, and I hope you know that it’s coming from the heart. 

~ Your web neighbor Jo</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree and disagree with your post. I am a Christian however I have my own view on thing that differ very much from what any church had taught. You see I do not view God as the feather. The feather is my faith. If anything I view the mouse as God, a friend by my side threw everything coaching me and guiding me and trying to help me have faith in myself. God is not a crutch for anyone because the Lord will not help those who do not help themselves therefore the Bible, which Christian or not is a great book for ethical guidance, teaches us to be people in action, to do something about being better within our selves.</p>
<p> It teaches us acceptance of the fellow man for good or for bad, that it’s not our place to judge and that we can only change ourselves and how we view things and what we do to make our world better for ourselves and better for our fellow men. I’m not trying to preach here so I apologize if that’s how I am coming across it just makes me sad that so often through the “Church” Gods message is lost, so much so that people loose their faith because the focus of who God is has been lost. </p>
<p>Prayer is not a magic wish list. Every sports team as fans or players, praying to win on both sides and someone will always loose, every job applied for, every opening in a college, every spot on a team has been prayed for at one time or another and most have not gotten what they wanted, was that an unanswered prayer? Some may view it as that I believe it was a wasted prayer. I think prayer is something that should be done from deep within your soul, a prayer for peace within ones self, a prayer for someone else in their time of need. A prayer for guidance, hope, energy; I thank God for all that I have yes but I will also praise him at the times in life when I have nothing, and I’ve been there in the darkness not knowing where to turn or what to do and I know that I’ve worked hard for everything I have. I’ve done the work but in that I thank Him for making me, making me who I am not only as a follower of Christ but as a person. </p>
<p>My hope in writing this is that you may one day see the truth about God and His unwavering love for all of us. Please know that I’m not trying to push my beliefs on you just simply offering another view point. The possibility that God is a friend and a Father someone or something that loves each of us unconditionally even in the times when we’ve turned our back to him and lost all faith &#8212;and I’ve been there, it was empty.  I had the success I did it on my own the roads were smooth I had my life and everything in it was just fine but deep down I knew something was missing. No matter if I’m on the top of the world with success or cold in the ally starving I’d rather be there with the love of God in my heart and on my lips. I pray for you, someone I’ve never met that you could simply be open to that possibility that God was not the feather in your cap, He’s the friend urging you to have faith within yourself. I hope my words have no offended in anyway, and I hope you know that it’s coming from the heart. </p>
<p>~ Your web neighbor Jo</p>
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		<title>Comment on You gotta have faith? by youngson</title>
		<link>http://ordover.wordpress.com/2009/03/09/you-gotta-have-faith/#comment-455</link>
		<dc:creator>youngson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 13:41:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ordover.wordpress.com/?p=240#comment-455</guid>
		<description>If you realy are a christian and a person who believes in creation,you will not ask questions that are beyound your understanding.You will have to do away with your thoughts and only obey.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you realy are a christian and a person who believes in creation,you will not ask questions that are beyound your understanding.You will have to do away with your thoughts and only obey.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Disclaimer about my posts on religion by Jim Klein</title>
		<link>http://ordover.wordpress.com/about-my-posts-on-religion/#comment-453</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Klein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 07:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ordover.wordpress.com/?page_id=92#comment-453</guid>
		<description>Hi,

Don&#039;t think the problem of religion is specific to its flavor. I was a catholic. Religion, at least organized christian religions, are in place so we don&#039;t need to think. They tell us what to believe and how to live and with very few exceptions, &quot;loosing your faith&quot; will cause your believing family and friends great angst because unless they can have everyone they know believe the way they do, their faith and their belief system is threatened. At least we don&#039;t need to worry about the Inquisition and torture and being burned alive at a stake for being in league with the devil, who we must be if Jesus is no longer the end al and be all of own life style.

There are lots of us little ships, navigating all by ourselves in this sea of life.

Jim Klein</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi,</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t think the problem of religion is specific to its flavor. I was a catholic. Religion, at least organized christian religions, are in place so we don&#8217;t need to think. They tell us what to believe and how to live and with very few exceptions, &#8220;loosing your faith&#8221; will cause your believing family and friends great angst because unless they can have everyone they know believe the way they do, their faith and their belief system is threatened. At least we don&#8217;t need to worry about the Inquisition and torture and being burned alive at a stake for being in league with the devil, who we must be if Jesus is no longer the end al and be all of own life style.</p>
<p>There are lots of us little ships, navigating all by ourselves in this sea of life.</p>
<p>Jim Klein</p>
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		<title>Comment on Misconceptions: Atheists hate God by sequiturblog</title>
		<link>http://ordover.wordpress.com/2009/01/16/misconceptions-atheists-hate-god/#comment-446</link>
		<dc:creator>sequiturblog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 18:05:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ordover.wordpress.com/?p=213#comment-446</guid>
		<description>Solomon,

Every word of this comment screams to me, &quot;Look at me!  I have not read the article I am replying to!&quot;  You are doing your fellow believers a grave disservice by trolling around on the internet with such malice against those whose case you haven&#039;t even considered.  It does not give me much &lt;i&gt;faith&lt;/i&gt; that you have researched your own position adequately.  

Speaking of your evidence, should &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.enufforethiopia.org/Images/Ethiopian_child_starving.jpg&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this child&lt;/a&gt; believe in your God?  Or is he also going to Hell for not giving thanks for all your benevolent god has done for him?  Just a thought...


</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Solomon,</p>
<p>Every word of this comment screams to me, &#8220;Look at me!  I have not read the article I am replying to!&#8221;  You are doing your fellow believers a grave disservice by trolling around on the internet with such malice against those whose case you haven&#8217;t even considered.  It does not give me much <i>faith</i> that you have researched your own position adequately.  </p>
<p>Speaking of your evidence, should <a href="http://www.enufforethiopia.org/Images/Ethiopian_child_starving.jpg" rel="nofollow">this child</a> believe in your God?  Or is he also going to Hell for not giving thanks for all your benevolent god has done for him?  Just a thought&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on Misconceptions: Atheists hate God by solomon</title>
		<link>http://ordover.wordpress.com/2009/01/16/misconceptions-atheists-hate-god/#comment-445</link>
		<dc:creator>solomon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jun 2009 01:14:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ordover.wordpress.com/?p=213#comment-445</guid>
		<description>The Atheists are Liars followed by Fools.The can&#039;t answer how can meaningful, precise information be created by accident—by mutation and natural selection? None of these contain the mechanism of intelligence, a requirement for creating complex information such as that found in the genetic code.
(DNA)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Atheists are Liars followed by Fools.The can&#8217;t answer how can meaningful, precise information be created by accident—by mutation and natural selection? None of these contain the mechanism of intelligence, a requirement for creating complex information such as that found in the genetic code.<br />
(DNA)</p>
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