Misconceptions: Atheists are amoral

By orDover

Without God, anything is permitted.

One of the most common misconceptions about atheists and atheism that I have encountered is the idea that atheists are amoral: lacking morality or a moral system. For example, I have heard theists claim that, according to an atheist worldview, the concepts of “good” and “evil” are without meaning. Others claim that atheists do not believe in God because they want an immoral lifestyle to be permissible. Both of these claims are untrue and lead to the vilification of atheists as threats to society and conventional morality.

Good and evil without God?

It is possible for notions of good and evil to exist without a divine authority, and thus it is possible for an atheist to understand and to care about the terms.

The theistic idea that we can only know about the concept of “good” if there is a God to impart such wisdom is the basis of this misconception. The idea that morality must come from a God is open to many problems, including the Euthyphro dilemma outlined by Plato. Does God chose good because it is independently good, or is good “good” because God chooses it? Christian scholar Thomas Aquinas attempted to solve this dilemma by stating that goodness is an intrinsic attribute of God’s character, but if God is good because he has all of the properties of goodness then this means necessarily that the properties of goodness are definable independently; the first part of the dilemma is affirmed. To say that God is good, in the sense that his character is full of goodness, suggests that goodness exists outside of God and it is something which he conforms to. To say that God is, and therefore is good, affirms the second part of dilemma, that goodness is contingent upon the whim or definition of a deity. This means that if a God was a sadist, sadism would therefore be rendered “good.”

If goodness is not contingent upon the definition of a particular deity, if it is independent from God and the first part of the dilemma is correct, then it is clearly obvious that atheists could make a “good” moral decision just as readily as a Christian, even if Aquinas’s benevolent God is real.

To take this a step further, we have the fact that each religious person makes a decision to follow a particular God without a set moral basis. Before a person becomes, say, a Christian, they do not put faith in the Christian doctrine to help them make their conversion decision. The decision is made independently. The religion is evaluated and a moral decision is made; the religion is either deemed “good” or “bad.” If only theists (those who know the will of God) are capable of making “good” or moral decisions, then how would one explain each persons’ conversion decision? Even if morality can only come from God, a non-theist could be capable of making a “good” decision.

As Jean-Paul Sartre put it, “If an angel comes to me, what proof is there that it’s an angel? And if I hear voices, what proof is there that they come from heaven and not from hell…If a voice addresses me, it is always for me to decide that this is the angel’s voice; if I consider that such an act is a good one, it is I who will chose to say that it is good rather than bad.”

Atheists just don’t care.

Aside from the philosophical, putting away the question of whether or not atheists are capable of understanding “good,” there is the issue of moral concern. Many theists assume that atheists either do not want to be good or do not care about goodness. We are often characterized as utterly selfish beings who are only looking out for our own skin. This is simply untrue. Atheists differ in the way that they form moral decisions, but we are still “good” law-abiding citizens who care about our fellow man.

Instead of basing a moral decision on religious writings or traditions, atheists use several different systems, including everything from the simple Golden Rule to Humanism to Existentialism. What these systems have in common is the basic concept of empathy: the recognition that personal actions can harm others and the desire to promote the well being of fellow men.

The Biblical Ten Commandments, the basis of morality for Christianity and Judaism, are often broken down into two categories: 1-4 are commandments relating to one’s relationship with God, and 4-10 are commandments relating to one’s relationship with other humans. The majority of the Ten Commandments are based on empathy. Atheists still value these sort of humanist commandments, we simply forgo the ones relating to the correct worship of God.

Moral relativism does not equal “Anything goes!”

As I mentioned above, atheists use several different system to help them make moral judgments, and no one system is valued above another. In this sense, atheists are moral relativists. We believe that morality is not a set of specific rules handed down from a God, but rather a socially constructed system which can vary from person to person and culture to culture. In the mind of a theist, moral relativism is often interpreted as an “Anything goes!” mentality, when in fact it is not.

Moral relativism is not equatable to anarchy. Atheists, in general, value their societies and see the purposefulness of laws and social regulations. We recognize the need for an agreed upon legal system that conforms with society’s moral values, and that above all else, as with empathy, promotes the well being of mankind.

I have been asked several times, since I am a moral relativist, if it is okay for a person to commit murder if they feel personally like committing murder is “good” or morally acceptable. The answer is simply: no. Murder, whether the person committing it thinks it is right or not, is a violation of humanism, of the empathetic idea that all people deserve to live.

From my materialistic worldview, there is a continuum of empathy, as with any other trait, like height or hair color. There are some people who are very tall, and some people who are very short, but most people fall somewhere comfortably in the middle. Likewise, your average person is  healthily empathetic, rather than so selfless that they starve to death by giving away all of their meals or so selfish that they are sociopathic.  Those of us who fall in the average middle can form societies and then form laws to protect our members. We can reach an agreement about the laws without the need for a God or religion because our drive toward empathy is a basic human trait. Those at the far end of the empathy continuum, such as a sociopath, have violated the will of society, even if they can defend their actions based on their personal concept of morality.

A better question to examine moral relativism might be whether it is morally acceptable for two people of the same gender to have a sexual relationship. To a Bible-believing Christian, the answer is clear cut: no, according to what is written in the Bible. In my personal life, I have chosen to be heterosexual (Or have I? That’s a topic for another day). Despite my personal decision, I can recognize the fact that another person in a different situation might make the opposite decision. Their actions, although they disagree with my own, do not violate the rights of another person or cause any other person direct harm, therefore it is a morally neutral decision.

“Man is Condemned to be free.”

Atheists are nor amoral. We care about right and wrong. “Good” and “evil” are terms that have value and meaning to us. In fact, many atheists spend more time worry about right and wrong than theists do. For theists it is simple; it is all written down in a book and taught on a weekly basis. For atheists, we have what Sartre termed the condemnation of freedom. We do not have a handy guidebook. We must make moral decisions on our own and shoulder the burden of the responsibility of our personal actions. Sartre calls this acute realization of personal responsibility man’s “anguish.” He writes, “the man who involves himself and who realizes that he is not only the person he chooses to be, but also a law-maker who is, at the same time, choosing all mankind as well as himself, can not help escape the feeling of his total and deep responsibility…one should always ask himself, ‘What would happen if everybody looked at things that way?’” Sartre outlines the realization that most atheists make: we are the moral examples for our fellow man, and with every decision we make we must constantly ask ourselves if we are behaving as correct models of behavior. We do not believe that we are held morally accountable by God, but rather by our fellow man.

I will leave you with one last Sartre quote,

For every man, everything happens as if all mankind has its eyes fixed on him and were guiding itself by what he does. And every man ought to say to himself, “Am I really the kind of man who has the right to act in such a way that humanity might guide itself by my actions?”

17 Responses to “Misconceptions: Atheists are amoral”

  1. Mark T. Market Says:

    Tradition and the prevalence of religion is what usually brands atheism in a bad light. There’s even that long standing notion that atheism is to blame for the mass murders of communists.

    I agree with your description of moral relativism. Such views contrast with tradition however, and traditional religious values still hold sway over conventional thinking.

    I can only commiserate with the victims of conventional thinking, like the case of the Italian being criticized by the Vatican for removing the life support of his child who had been comatose for years. Inflexible moral standards are good in many occasions, but not all.

  2. Christopher Says:

    I’ve never considered athiests amoral. Clearly your explanation of how athiests obtain morality or use different systems to make moral decisions is valid. And I’ve never believed that athiests are selfish, quite the contrary, many athiests seem to show more concern for their fellow man and the earth we live on that “religious” people.

    What has me perplexed is that athiests, though shaped by culture and society and different systems, are still rational, thinking beings. Which means that as an athiest, you can recognize that your morality is relative, and shaped in part by culture, society, your upbringing, world view, and should, in theory, be able to separate your conditioned responses from what you “know” to be true.

    Which makes me question how you come to a humanistically arrived idea that all people deserve to live. I don’t understand how, from an athiestic view, anyone can “deserve” anything.

  3. orDover Says:

    Which makes me question how you come to a humanistically arrived idea that all people deserve to live. I don’t understand how, from an athiestic view, anyone can “deserve” anything.

    How is it any different from a religious perspective? From my biology, culture, society, and upbringing I have come to understand that life has value. You came to understand that life has value because the Bible says so or because God made everyone special or whatever else. Different paths leading to the same point.

  4. Christopher Says:

    The difference is as a rational creature, you understand that your idea of life having value is something programmed by circumstances. It’s not a true statement, like iron melts at 3,000 degrees farenheit, or that all vertebrate brains contain a hypothalamus, or that the earth is 91 million miles from the sun. It’s a values-derived statement, and if true, can only be true for you or someone who agrees with you, unlike the distance of earth from the sun, which is true regardless of who believes it. Kind of like your discussion of what is art. Beauty is in the eye of beholder, art is in the eye of the artist, and, if the only thing that gives life value is your biology, culture, society, and upbringing, then the value of life is in a similar precarious position of relativity. It makes sense that an atheist would be a moral relativist.

    The difference, from a “religious perspective”, is that regardless of who you are or what you believe, that perspective holds that because you are loved by God, you have value. Life has value because it has value derived from an outside source, and it’s not relative, but absolute.

    Quite different.

    Life has value to you because you’ve decided it does. You haven’t “come to undestand” life has value, I would argue, but made a conscious decision that to you, life has value. Another person may make a decision that it does not. Who is right?

    Which leaves me with my original question of how from an athiest’s standpoint, can anyone “deserve” anything.

    I’ll quit now, because I could talk about this stuff all day.

  5. orDover Says:

    The difference, from a “religious perspective”, is that regardless of who you are or what you believe, that perspective holds that because you are loved by God, you have value. Life has value because it has value derived from an outside source, and it’s not relative, but absolute.

    Quite different.

    Is it? You decided that Christianity is the one true religion and that God created all living things. It isn’t a matter of truth like the distance from the sun. It isn’t something which can be proven empirically to be true, and therefore anything your holy book says cannot be proven as fact. At best, it is a personal revelation–a personal decision.

    Life has value to you because you’ve decided it does.

    Life has value to you because you decided to believe in God.

    You haven’t “come to undestand” life has value, I would argue, but made a conscious decision that to you, life has value. Another person may make a decision that it does not. Who is right?

    You made a conscious decision to follow the doctrines of Christianity, therefore by proxy you decided that life has value.

    The idea of being a moral relativist is that you decide what is “right” based on how many people agree (but really, it isn’t a decision as much as a curriculum you are taught). This means sociopaths go to jail for murdering people, because almost every person will agree that murder is wrong. If we had a society were the majority of people decided that murder is okay, then murder would be socially acceptable, or “right.” The idea is that concepts of right and wrong are social constructs, and are mutable (both in the case of differing societies and differing time frames) rather than absolute.

    That being said, society ingrains its values onto the psyches of its members. I didn’t really “decide” all on my own that life is valuable. It was something I was programmed biologically to feel and then later programmed social to understand. It is a part of my nature and I could never just change my mind. Yes, I am able to look back and see that my understanding of life as a valuable thing doesn’t come from a holy mandate but rather is a biological and social construct, but that does not lessen the degree of my certainty or open up my mind to the possibility of the negation of my opinion.

    If you turned away from Christianity tomorrow, do you think that you would all of a sudden decide that life isn’t valuable, or would you use your new outlook to understand that value from a different perspective?

    Which leaves me with my original question of how from an athiest’s standpoint, can anyone “deserve” anything.

    It’s really the simple Golden Rule (which was written down long before Jesus): living beings deserve life because I feel that I deserve life. I am able to use my own emotions (the desire to live) to understand emphatically the desire for life in others. I don’t think that living things deserve to live because God said so or because they did something to “deserve” being treated with empathy and kindness, but rather the fact that they are alive is enough.

    You think that life is precious because it is a gift from God. I believe that life is precious because I am empathetic. I don’t need a God to show me that life special, I just need a brain and a little understanding.

    Do any of us “deserve” life? I don’t know. That doesn’t even make much sense in a materialistic worldview because it assigns desires to the creative process. Did I deserve to be born, or did it just happen? What about the other potential people that my parents could have created? Did they not deserve to be born? Something happened, and it didn’t deserve to happen or deserve not to, because nothing with a will was looking after it. It’s an irrelevant question.

    When I said that people deserve to live, I mean that life has worth. Life doesn’t have to come from a God to be special. Heck, the sheer statistically unlikelihood of my existence, or the existence of any living thing, is enough reason for me. And yes, I am comfortable with the fact that saying “life has worth” is a personal value statement (just as saying “Jesus is God” is a personal value statement), not a statement of truth in the scientific sense. I say life has worth because my biology and society have programmed me to be empathetic.

  6. Christopher Says:

    Touche on your response. Well argued, and for the most part, in my opinion, right on. While we disagree on the end results of our personal revelations, our methodology is similar.

    And to answer your question, being a person whos thoughts are rooted in logic, if I turned away from Christianity tomorrow, I would recognize that I feel empathy towards others only because of my own human condition, and, like you argued, because of biology and society. At the same time I would recognize that those things don’t actually give value, and if I decided to go against the grain of society and biology, I would not be “wrong”. It would also be easy for me to be pro-choice, and it would be fairly easy to be unconcerned with the plight of less fortunate humans who’s existence or non-existence really has no bearing on my life or the life of people I care about.

    Consider the cannabilistic tribe in central Africa in the first century C.E. To them, the life of tribal members may have value, but certainly human life as a whole has no value beyond lunch. Were they “wrong”? From your point of view, they can’t be. From mine, their distorted view of the value of others was wrong. From the viewpoint of the guy being placed in the boiling pot of water, I’m willing to bet that no matter his biology or social conditioning, at that moment he was decidedly against cannabilism as well. Though perhaps, if he were a die-hard athiest, he might still defend the relativism of the value of human life ;)

    I have a hard time understanding how something like the value of human life cannot be absolute.

    I know that many “religious” people contradict themselves by being in favor of the death penalty. Heck, religious people contradict themselves on many issues. But from my viewpoint (my personal revelation), the value of human life is not relative, but absolute based upon a loving God.

    So yes, you are right that the idea of a loving God is not absolute, because it cannot be proven with empiracle data. But if one chooses to believe in God, one now has an absolute for establishing value for human life, while if one is an athiest, they are left with a relative system for establishing such value. And relativism, in reality, means no value can be assigned, if one so chooses.

    And you’ve mentioned the sheer statistical unlikely hood of life several times. Why can’t that fact be a starting point for establishing the existence of a Creator? I’m still reading through back posts- so don’t answer if you already have earlier. I’ll get to it :)

  7. orDover Says:

    if I turned away from Christianity tomorrow, I would recognize that I feel empathy towards others only because of my own human condition, and, like you argued, because of biology and society. At the same time I would recognize that those things don’t actually give value, and if I decided to go against the grain of society and biology, I would not be “wrong”

    No, if you went against the grain of society, you would be wrong. The idea is that society communally establishes social contracts to be upheld by all of its citizens. If you don’t uphold it, you get “banished” in a certain sense. You aren’t allowed to participate in society any more (to us today, this means you go to jail). This is a testable hypothesis. If you think you have the right to break the laws established by society, based on your internal moral compass or whatever else, go ahead and try it. You’ll either be caught and sent to jail or mentally tortured a la Raskolnikov in Crime and Punishment. If you aren’t mentally tortured then you probably have no empathy and are thus characterized as a sociopath, who also are no allowed to participate in society (or at least to participate on normal levels). This is why I said in the original post that moral relativism does not equate to anarchy or “anything goes.”

    Consider the cannabilistic tribe in central Africa in the first century C.E. To them, the life of tribal members may have value, but certainly human life as a whole has no value beyond lunch. Were they “wrong”? From your point of view, they can’t be. From mine, their distorted view of the value of others was wrong.

    First of all, much in the tradition of a member of Western society, you are failing to understand the deep religious and social significance of an act like cannibalism. Humans did not/do not cannibalize just to get food (unless you want to count the Wreck of the Medusa or the Donner Party, events under very extreme circumstances), as you suggest. They did/do so for “spiritual” reasons. For example, for the Asmat tribe in New Guinea, heads are very sacred. They hold the soul. If they killed an enemy in battle they felt they had to eat the brain and then sew up the facial cavities, or else their enemy’s spirit might escape and wreak havoc on them. It’s a practice that was deeply rooted in their religious beliefs, and actually had no bearing on the value of human life. If anything, it shows the respect they had for even their enemies.

    And this is exactly what I mean about moral relativism. Western people have gone to New Guinea and called the Asmat “evil” because of their practices. They have judged them according to the standards of Western society, which simply is not fair. How could they be “evil” if they don’t know they are breaking some law based on another culture and another religion? Their actions must be considered in the appropriate cultural perspective before one can decry an entire population for evil deeds. (And then of course, adding a layer of irony, when Westerners usually found a tribe of native peoples that they considered evil based on Biblical guidelines, they murdered them en masse.)

    I have a hard time understanding how something like the value of human life cannot be absolute

    Well, you agreed that you cannot prove definitely that your God is absolute, therefore none of his laws can actually be proven as absolute. You’re going off of conjecture and personal emotion. God’s laws feel like they are absolute because that’s what “his” unverifiable book supposedly says.

    I understand how this could be a very unsettling concept. Honestly, I’d like for there to be a few absolutes in the world. I get the appeal. If it makes you feel any better, the value of human life is as close to an absolute as you might ever find. It exists universally in ever culture on every continent. It even exists among animals with higher mental functions.

    And you’ve mentioned the sheer statistical unlikely hood of life several times. Why can’t that fact be a starting point for establishing the existence of a Creator?

    I don’t know that I’ve ever addressed that question here. I don’t mean the “statistical unlikely hood of life” to mean life existing on our planet. We’re made of some of the most plentiful elements in the universe. We’re sitting on a planet that is in no way unique in a star system that is nearly identical to several others. There’s no reason to believe that life is foreign to our universe. What I mean is the improbability that I would exist exactly like I am at exactly this time. I think about how all of my ancestors, stretching back millions of years and several different species, had to survive in a hostile environment to breeding age. I represent the unbroken lineage of eons. And the same goes for any living thing that exists or has existed. The chance that one of their ancestors would have died before breeding age, and therefore they would have never existed is pretty darn high. For me to be here right now, with this exact genetic make-up, I had to come from a line of very successful individuals that lived at a time when living was a much harder thing to do. The chances that I as I know myself now would crop up within my lineage is in itself statistically low. Many things had to happen and not happen to make me possible. And on a smaller level, several permutations of “me” were all equally as probably within the reproductive organs of my parents.

    But besides that, even if life on our planet does prove to be rare for our universe, that does not point me toward a creator, simply because a creator is superfluous. The furnace of stars and the energy present in the universe, given enough time (and we’ve had plenty), is enough to account for any and all life. No creator needed.

  8. Christopher Says:

    Your lack of a creator begs the questions of where the matter that makes up the universe originated. Though I acknowledge my presence of a creator begs the question of where the creator came from. We are both in a quandry.

    I disagree that my belief in God is based on personal conjecture or emotion. I’m much too logical of a thinker for that. It’s based on evidence I’ve determined to be valid, or, more accurately, valid enough for me to allow faith to make up the difference.

    Your response on cannabilism highlights my over-simplification. It doesn’t negate my argument that some societies have approved of or otherwise condoned various types of murder. In those societies, human life, or some human life, was regarded as less valuable than others. Even our society makes this value judgement.

    You are more than right that many religious groups have met indigenous peoples and then, proclaiming them evil, summarily committed genocide. I don’t think apologizing on their behalf will make anyone happy, but it saddens me none-the-less.

    I still don’t understand how humans, valuing human life because they are human, makes human life valuable. It’s still relative. And you’re right. I need some absolutes. I also need to believe that love is more than a chemical reaction and courage more than a conscious decision to over-ride the Id that is experiencing a flight response.

    That said, you present some great arguments, are clearly either more knowledgeable or more researched than me, and I feel slightly sorry for your spouse when he picks an argument with you. :)

    I do thank you for taking the time to answer my responses, as I both enjoy the intellectual debate, and learn something new each time.

  9. Gstudent Says:

    “Which makes me question how you come to a humanistically arrived idea that all people deserve to live. I don’t understand how, from an athiestic view, anyone can “deserve” anything.”

    Self Interest.

    Life is more interesting with other people in it.

  10. Brad Hart Says:

    The big problem is the religious community refuse to separate good and evil from right and wrong, unless it suits some hypocritical purpose. Good and evil, right and wrong are merely points of view with no moral absolute. The only thing you can truly define are legal right right and wrongs, and even then we fail to do a very good job of it.

  11. Christopher Says:

    So when slavery was both legal and socially accepted in the infancy of the US, it was neither right or wrong, neither good nor evil, merely relatively morally acceptable and protected by law?

    Somewhere the inividual gets lost in this social philosophy.

  12. orDover Says:

    Slavery was indeed a culture problem, not a problem of moral absolutes. You know that even Christians, who out of all of us, if the theory of moral absolutes hold true, should have the best understanding of morality, supported the practice using their holy book. It was an across-the-board culture problem, everyone was in agreement (until the trickle of dissent began). And if a culture sees nothing wrong with its actions, of course it isn’t going to change them. I can only judge that culture according to my own standards, which are affected by my personal biases. According to me, I can never see any justification for slavery, but I don’t believe that my position as a 21st century Westerner allows me to label any civilization which practiced slavery immoral (which was pretty much all of them, from the Babylonians on).

    In Western culture, there was a paradigm shift regarding slavery. It wasn’t as if one person opened up their Bible and suddenly found a passage that read, “Slavery’s bad, mmmkay?” and then realized they had gotten it wrong all that time, and that slavery was absolutely morally wrong. There was a gradual culture shift from one mentality to another, and it is only from this changed mentality, which will still hold today, that we can even say that slavery is immoral. If that paradigm shift had never occurred, if our culture and our culture’s religions still supported slavery, none of us today would be saying it’s immoral (well, maybe a few of us would, but that sort of dissent is the beginning of a paradigm shift).

  13. Christopher Says:

    I would argue that some people who considered themselves Christians used their holy book to justify slavery.

    And some Christians were aboloshionists who fought against slavery.

    Prop 8 was approved by a slight majority. So you don’t see that victory as wrong? Because the paradigm shift has not favorably swung to the side of those who support equal rights for homosexuals, you are to sit idley by, waiting, passing no moral judgement?

    No, you’ve clearly lableled some who oppose homosexuality and then take action based on that belief as “bigots”. Apparantly, those bigots hold a majority in California. “Bigots” is not a neutral word, instead, you are clearly casting judgement against people whose cultural and social conditioning allow them to believe something. Are you seeing the irony?

    Look, I am for equal rights for gays, that’s not what this argument is about. But I’m using that previous conversation to show that there are absolutes.

    All people are equal. It’s absolute. If it wasn’t, some people’s attemtps to prove otherwise wouldn’t bother you. You were raised under the Judeo Christian ethic in suburban middle America- same social background as the people who supported Prop 8. Yet you’ve come to a different conclusion using rationale and thought and you’ve broken away from the beliefs of your family and social conditioning… how?

    Absolutes. They proposed to have them, then went against them.

    But absolutes still exist, no matter their hypocrasy. There are absolutes. My life is no more valuable than the man dying of AIDS in a gutter of Nairobi. Why? What can he offer society? I am a cop who protects the peace and is an involved citizen and a spouse and parent and an active participant of society. He’s days away from death and no one will really miss him.

    He has value? How?

    Absolutes. That’s how.

  14. orDover Says:

    I would argue that some people who considered themselves Christians used their holy book to justify slavery.

    And some Christians were aboloshionists who fought against slavery.

    Where were the abolitionist Christians in 1380? 1412? 1540? 1610? They certainly weren’t the majority, if they even existed.

    Do you think the 13th amendment would have passed the popular vote in 1808? I highly doubt it. It took time for the cultural paradigm shift to take place, and there is one taking place now.

    It’s much more complicated to talk about moral relativism when one lives in a culture with several belief systems all affected by different microcommunities that come from different social, religious, geographical, and economic backgrounds. It is not impossible to think in these terms still, but complicated.

    The concept of Majority rule can be very dangerous when there are several minorities involved, or microcommunities. The minority deserves protection exactly because of moral relativism. Protection of the rights of minorities insists that one community’s belief has no more weight than another, even if one group has a larger number. With an issue like Prop 8 we have two communities battling it out, not one community under general agreement with a few on the fringe. The majority should not be allowed to rule over the minority in a country like ours. That’s not about moral absolutes, but about protecting the autonomy of the differing microcommunities.

    <i…you’ve clearly lableled some who oppose homosexuality and then take action based on that belief as “bigots”. Apparantly, those bigots hold a majority in California. “Bigots” is not a neutral word, instead, you are clearly casting judgement against people whose cultural and social conditioning allow them to believe something. Are you seeing the irony?

    Here’s the difference: I’m not saying they are evil. I’m making a judgement, but I’m making that judgement according to my own microcommunity while recognizing that they come from another and understanding the reasons behind their beliefs and actions. I’m not saying that one of us is absolutely right and one is absolutely wrong, or that the issue can be independently determined. I think they should be allowed their opinion, but that opinion should not be allowed to affect the lives of others from a different community who disagree. Since I’m a moral relativist I say that homophobia follows their doctrine and I respect that, but I recognize that the homosexuals and their morality deserve equal respect, and neither group should be allowed to rule over the other.

    If you’re so sure that there are moral absolutes, what else do you think is absolute, aside from the value of human life? How are we to figure out these absolutes? How do you explain the fact that even something which seems like it should be a moral absolute, such as not engaging in murder, is actually subject to may different culture limitations (Westerners are okay with murder in the context of war, while Buddhists are against the taking of any life under any context)?

  15. orDover Says:

    An additional interesting observation: would issues like slavery and homophobia even exist if everyone believed in moral relativism?

    The reason we are having a battle over Prop 8 right now is because one group insists that their moral opinion is THE correct one, and they feel that they can inflict what they perceive to be moral truth upon another community. (And before anyone even tries to go there, no, it is not the same thing to “force” Christians to accept homosexuality. Making homosexual marriage legal, despite protests from religious groups, does not force said religious groups to participate in homosexuality or even find it morally a-okay. It just ensures they can’t inflict their moral will upon others.)

    Likewise modern slavery was born out of the concept that white people were morally, racially, and intellectually better than Africans or other native peoples, and therefore they could dominate over them without feeling bad about it. What if Western sailors to America were moral relativists and recognized that Africans had a unique religion and culture every bit as relevant as their own? Would they have still see fit to enslave them?

  16. Christopher Says:

    I don’t believe slavery came about because white people thought they were superior, I believe that white people used their feelings of superiority to justify slavery. If it wasn’t that, they would have found something else, like some you mentioned who erroneously used the Bible.

    And yes, there has always been a minority of Christians who were against slavery.

    So to answer your last question, yes, I believe slavery could exist in a world of moral relativists. Anything, in theory, could exist in a world of moral relativists, because it is all relative and we are still bound by our social, cultural, and biological restraints if we so choose.

    Regarding Prop 8, I think you may have oversimplified the issue. It is not simply one group who does not think gay marriage should be legal against another side that does. There is a broad spectrum on both sides, from the deeply religiously opposed to it to the mildly against it do to culture, to the other side where some just think everyone should be treated equal to the militantly gay. To be fair, on both sides there are groups who think their opinion is THE correct one. I’ve heard and read many anit-straight slurs from a sector of the anti-Prop 8 crowd.

    Again, I believe everyone should be treated equal, I want to make that clear. I was just using Prop 8 as an example.

    I still find it curious that you use culture and society and biology to explain away moral relativism, yet you’ve clearly broken those barriers by de-converting.

    I think the reason that occurred is because you did something few in our society do, and that is to rationally question what you’ve been told. I think that when you begin to do that, you start the process of stepping outside of our cultural and societal contraints.

    The difference is that your questioning has lead to de-conversion, where mine has lead to re-thinking Christianity.

    The problem with only allowing science to be a guide to truth is like looking through the world only using a microscope. You can analyze so much more than with the naked eye, and get so much closer to the composition of things. But you also limit yourself to one narrow view.

    Science takes us so many places. But so does reason and philosophy.

    Just an opinion.

    And I believe there are two absolutes.

  17. No God, No Value? « orDover Says:

    [...] then that means his opinion is bound to be good and therefore truthful, but that brings us back to Plato’s Euthyphro dilemma: does God chose good because it is independently good, or is good “good” because God chooses [...]

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